Hi,
A friend wants to degoogle his phone, so I suggested the OS I’m currently using. The one we can’t talk about… He wants a small/compact phone, so I suggested pixel 4a (not buying second hand though), but I’m afraid that planned obsolescence may kill the phone rather soon. What’s your opinion?
Cheers and thank you for your help,
The one we can’t talk about…
I don’t get it ? Why can’t we say it’s name ?
Because GrapheneOS is a debatable triggering subject for some people. Basically the OS itself is amazing and very good. But the project leader is apparently arrogant and offensive. And offended a load of big known online personalities. Apparently he says his OS is the best and better then everyone else etc etc. So the question is: do you use and support a project where the product itself is amazing and just what the world needs, but where the project leader is offensive? Some say yes, some say no. = Controversial subject.
Personally I use GrapheneOS because I need a good camera and I like having a flagship modern phone. Currently I’m using a Pixel 7 Pro. I also like the privacy and security features that graphene offer. I don’t see another project out there that can offer me the same. The product is good.
But the project leader is apparently arrogant and offensive.
“apparently”
Well yes exactly. It’s all just big personalities online that say that these things happened. Who knows really what the guy is like. A few big names online say these things about him, but I personally have never had any Interaction with him. So it could all be true, or partly true, or not at all. I guess no smoke without fire… but there is always 2 sides to every story.
What’s the OS we can’t talk about?
To be more helpful than the joke comments you’ve received so far, it’s graphene OS that’s causing a lot of controversy.
What’s the controversy?
I’m honestly not quite sure, I just know people are getting riled up when it’s mentioned.
It gets people going, (Daniel) 'Mkay?
I stole this from another lemmy comment, please don’t come after me
Who’s comment was that 😂
Can’t really remember right now. I think it was a thread on which phone to buy and people were talking about graphene os on pixels.
Someone commented something along the lines of “m’lady” but with Daniel Micay’s name as a pun
They claim their security measures are better then other custom ROMs.
Don’t they all make that claim?
Hence the controversy! 🙂
Also, Graphene tend to act superior about it and it pisses people off.
That doesnt sound like a controversy, its bascially “btw, I use arch”
https://www.privacyguides.org/en/android/
There is no controversy. There’s a lot of people memeing. I haven’t seen a single security analysis, or survey of options, that didn’t put GOS at the very top. Look at privacy guides, they say graphene is great, but if you can’t use that divest is okay.
People may not like the leader, and the developers are very opinionated which turns other people off, but I don’t think there’s any questioning the pedigree and the level of security provided
Do they all really? I know GrapheneOS does, and I think DivestOS even says “use my OS to stay as up to date as possible, but if you have a current/supported Pixel, use GrapheneOS instead for superior security.” But I don’t recall other OSes really going “we’re more secure than GrapheneOS and here’s why.”
Hannah Montana Android.
We don’t talk about Hannah Montana Android.
We sing about Hannah Montana android
The OS-who-shall-not-be-named lest you summon it’s power.
The open-source one that’s so powerful it summons an online fight with at least 50 members if mentioned. It’s kinda anomalous so it is recommended not to mention it online until further research.
4a is end of life already, so no firmware updates from Google. GrapheneOS has legacy builds available for it but doesn’t recommend using them, and they might go away anytime soon
get a used device which is still properly supported, don’t buy brand new e-waste
You could just jot use Graphene OS. They create ewaste just as much as Android. Lineage OS will run on 8 year old phones.
I have a 4a running graphene and I love it but after 3+ years the battery life is shot. I really didn’t want to buy any of the new pixels because they are all too big and I hate big phones. I was thinking of just buying a new 4a and installing graphene again (because got forbid making a phone where you can just swap out the battery in this day and age) but are you saying this would be a bad idea at this point? Like even if they keep graphene up to date the phone will still be outdated (and therefore vulnerable) at the kernel/hardware level?
yes and P4a is already one major GOS/Android version behind, it’s only getting “extended legacy support” releases. i.e. security fixes are merged and backported where possible, but it’s overall not the best setup and they recommend to switch asap.
I’m pretty sure GOS will drop Android 13 (and therefore P4a) as soon as they release Android 15, since the team won’t be maintaining three major Android versions.
CalyxOS ported Android 14 to P4a, so you might squeeze an additional year or so out of it if you switch.
I’d either replace the battery in the old P4a, or get a newer model with 7y software support. But buying a new 4a is probably not your best possible move
I think it’s a bit too old, if you want to stay in the pixel ecosystem maybe try to grab a 6, 6a or 6 pro. They are around $250, and they are great!
I recently got a 6a to replace my iPhone SE for €160 and it’s been working great.
Great
Can someone explain to me under what circumstances would using an old phone be risky (under a common reasonable threat model)?
No security fixes once the device reaches end of life. For pixel 4a end of security updates was 10 months ago. That mostly is a problem with malicious apps - there were some privilege escalation bugs in those 10 months - but sometimes you get a banger that can get exploited by simply loading a page or opening an image.
I get it about malicious apps but what about just using mainstream apps and surfing the web with adblockers?
Wouldn’t those be typically handled at an OS level? If you’re using an OS that actually gets updates, you’re only vulnerable to attacks at the kernel or driver level
If you are on stock software on EOL device you are not getting os updates either.
Also a bunch of recent vulns were in SoC specific stuff - outside os.
Random hardware suggestions, using mobile Linux support as a litmus test
- Pinephone (Pro): Main downside is that OG Pinephone has extremely anemic hardware, and the charging circuit is not controlled through hardware for some insane reason; hope the kernel devs of whatever OS you put on it knows how to not turn your phone into a bomb. Also Pine64 as a company has gotten flak for their support of Manjaro. Can’t deny how good the price is though.
- Fairphone 4: Good hardware, but expensive. I don’t own it, but it works good on postmarketOS according to the wiki.
- Librem 5: Overpriced compared to the earlier members on this list, but you can guarantee the phosh interface will work well considering it was developed by Purism as well.
- OnePlus 6 and 6T: I don’t know much about these, but they’re very popular with the mobile Linux crowd.
As for the pixel, there’s work on it but it’s still broken at the moment. As for the hardware being too old, I haven’t used anything Android in a while, so I don’t know how much performance degrades each release, but a mobile Linux distribution should run just as good today as it will 20 years from now, assuming you use the same interface.
Yes, that is too old for a new phone considering it’s already past its end-of-life for both official support and your OS. I’m not sure why you’d recommend them to buy new either - a phone like that is only going to be good value if you pick up a used one for cheap. A new model will be massively overpriced for what it is (and may not even be new, just refurbished and repackaged).
I guess they were talking about a refurbished or a used one.
They specifically said “not second hand” so I assumed not.
Sorry I am really blind recently. A new 4A is a terrible deal
I’m using a 4a right now which I bought last year, refurbished. It’s a great phone and has a headphone jack. If you’re concerend about updates, install an alternative OS. If you want to degoogle that should be the path anyway.
The Google Pixel 4a is officially end-of-life and doesn’t get any software and security updates anymore (https://endoflife.date/pixel).
CalyxOS still provides extended support for Pixel 4a until August 2024.
FYI: “Extended support” from a custom rom means the OS level software gets updated, not the device firmware. So you still end up with a not fully up to date phone.
Written from my Pxiel 4a. :)
I am far from unbiased as I just switched back to my pixel 4a from my new Sony Xperia. I think the Pixel 4a is a flat out GREAT phone, full stop. It is perfectly sized IMO, has been very reliable, good battery life (though at this point I should look into replacing the battery), and it has a headphone jack. That being said, picking it as a new phone now essentially means going with a custom rom and hoping it stays supported. That’s fine and all, but it’s not something most people want. Just to be clear, the xperia isn’t a bad option per se, I only switched back because the phone came carrier locked when it was supposed to be unlocked and the carrier it was locked to was uncooperative so I refunded it.
Pixel 5 is end-of-life and shouldn’t be used anymore due to lack of security patches for firmware and drivers.
I understand if your friend is on a budget and simply can’t afford a non EOL phone but, they should really consider a 6th gen Pixel or better if they care at all about their data security.
Has there been a successful exploit against a phone with old firmware but modern Android security patches?
I am not sure if there is an example of that specific situation as it would be pretty odd for a phone to be receiving security patches but not firmware updates.
Anyway its not super relevant as the Pixel 5 does not receive firmware or security patches anymore.
OP also seems to be inferring he suggested to his friend to use a very specific security / privacy OS that does not recommend using that model phone anymore for the exact reasons I mentioned. Plus the model is only receiving partial support as a stop gap for users to have time to get a newer model and won’t be supported much longer anyway.
Custom ROMs will receive upstream Android security patches but not patches from proprietary components (firmware). For instance, my Moto g7 power has Android security patches from May but the latest vendor security patch level is 2021. (I’m running Lineage OS) I’m curious to know if the older firmware is a problem. I don’t think it is easily exploitable outside of government backdoors. Not that it matters much as I plan on keeping my phone until it dies.
Not sure where your getting your information but the Pixel 5 has not gotten Android updates or security updates in over 7 months.
There are tons of examples of exploits being used to target EOL phones as its common for people to not care about these updates, or be misinformed, so they are easy targets.
If OP or anyone else wants to use an EOL phone that’s fine but, don’t pretend its a smart security practice. Although even if I were to use an EOL phone, LineageOS doesn’t have the greatest background and isn’t really degoogled
You are still missing my point. All phones actively supported by Lineage OS get Android security patches. Those aren’t vendor patches but they do patch the OS and sometimes the kernel.
For instance, the Pixel 5 was last updated June 28. https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/panther/
Not to say that you should still buy it. However, if it cheap it might be worth it.
Also from the article you linked:
Although the incident forced LineageOS to take offline all its service, it did not impact the signing keys that authenticate distributions because they are stored on hosts separate from the main infrastructure.
Those are partial security patches (its not in the same ballpark as a non EOL phone).
Even non EOL phones are usually updated dangerously slow when it comes to LineageOS.
Some more sources, not sure why I’m even adding them as you seem hell bent to believe LineageOS is secure regardless of the facts.
https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm
https://www.kuketz-blog.de/lineageos-weder-sicher-noch-datenschutzfreundlich-custom-roms-teil4/
If my device is so insecure why haven’t I been compromised? Your “facts” are only important if it promotes Graphene OS.
I think lineage is a good operating system for a limited exposure use cases. Like a project phone on a safe network, or as a webcam, or is like a embedded hardware controller. But not on the raw internet, not processing raw internet data, not with open Wi-Fi, not with open Bluetooth.
Even with all of that, it should still be segmented from the rest of the network
I bought a used Pixel 5 in Feb for my daily driver. Replaced my Pixel 3 only because the power button was flaky. They both still run great. By my standards, getting two years out of a phone I paid $150 for is better than getting three years out of a $700 phone.
Depends on your friends threat model, lineage will work on it.
No security updates makes the Pixel 4a a bold choice for your main phone. I don’t recommend it
I would follow the graphene OS recommended phone guide, that gives you maximum flexibility to put any operating system you want on the phone.
Phones are insecure devices, by design. Should be OK.
Just don’t do anything on a phone that falls under “sensitive” on your threat model. Use a proper computer with a proper password for that.
Could you explain how phones are insecure by design?
How long is your password? Do you ever type it in public?
You can use two factor, fingerprint plus pin and have the pin layout randomize each time.
That’s extremely insecure compared to a computer
How?
I think phones are the MOST secure devices most people have. They are locked down, they run software in very restricted containers, they have more restrictive feature allowance. for 99% of the people the phone is the most secure device, full stop.
Can you do better on a computer? Sure, but it takes a bunch of work and isn’t the out of box experience
So you’re saying that, in order for me to steal everything on your phone, all I have to do is stand behind you in a supermarket and film you unlock your screen once. Then, on the way to your car, I quickly pull a knife on you and force you to tap your finger on your phone, then I hop on a motorbike and ride away.
Hope you didn’t have any banking apps or crypto on your phone, because now that’s gone.
QubesOS on a laptop is much much safer.
Yes, it is. You should not recommend such a phone. And this only in terms oft update.
The arguments against the company behind this phone would Film books, but that’s another point
Writing from a 3 years old 4a running CalyxOs: the phone is a perfect choice if you want a small sized phone with a 3.5mm jack and that gets constant updates. The camera might be a little better but I don’t take many pictures so I don’t mind.
the camera is amazing, but you need to use the Google Camera app for it to take advantage of all the Pixel magic. 3rd party camera apps will yield lousy shots comparatively.
