Fuxkin’ Wizards are a gods-damned drain on the party. Lucky if they get one spell off while they spend the rest of their actions moving out of the way and making other members spend their actions on helping and reviving. Yeah sure that one spell they manage to get off is fucking dope but I’ll take a sorcerer over a wizard any day of the week even at disadvantage.
I think it’s a problem just because of changing expectations for the game. If you’re playing modern D&D, where combat is supposed to be balanced, character death is rare, everyone levels at roughly the same rate, yeah, it sucks to be an early level wizard or a late level fighter who can’t keep up with the rest of the party. I get why the trend has been to try to balance them, even if it’s a bit wonky. I get it, it’s hard to do.
But if you’re playing it in more old-school way, where it’s more gamey, it makes a LOT more sense. Combat isn’t necessarily balanced, character death is more on the table, you’re more likely to have a rotating cast, and parties can have different levels between the members. So the late-game magic-user is the reward for playing the class that’s weaker earlier on, and the fighter is great for jumping into the action.
To be fair, Gygax as a DM was adversarial AF and literally sought every opportunity to TPK with singular focus. To him, the way you won at D&D was to know the game better than the DM, and he was an insufferable ass about it, NGL. (source: I had the privilege of playing at his table at GenCon in the 90s) The bit about the Wish Fulfillment is spot on, as the OG creators of the system constructed it out of spreadsheets and statistics (shudders in THAC0) in order to “realistically” play out their own branches of Tolkein’s grand tales. So, with that in mind, and LotR in its entirety as a blueprint, the casters-as-gods-in-training and martials grabbing all the glory makes perfect sense.
And that’s not even touching on the extreme rarity of “late game” sessions ever being played. The impact of obligations on scheduling in adulthood combined with the exponentially more complex prep work involved on both sides of the table add up to “campaigns” being a pipe dream for all but the most cloistered of gaming groups. In fact, smart money’s on the likelihood that high level short arcs & one shots easily outnumber by an order of magnitude the campaigns that’ve reached late game status through regular play.
So, I guess what I’m saying here is: comparing the two is less about what affects actual gameplay and pretty much only about debating who would win in a fight and at what point on their level progression — not unlike arguing which comic book character could whip another one’s ass, or which sportsball player has the better stats at certain points in their career… And, we’re back to Wish Fulfillment theorycrafting. 🤓🧙🏼♂️
This is so gloriously fucking spot on that I’d take my hat off (if it weren’t a cursed artifact with -2 charisma bound to my head through magicks unknown)
That’s how I felt with Gale in Bg3. First part of the game I was always trying to save his scrawny ass, but once he’s leveled up the man is a weapon of magical destruction.
The DMs I’ve always played with run a meat grinder for a campaign, character death is a regular thing. We don’t get attached to them. So there’s rarely any characters higher then lvl 5-8 or so. Maybe you’re right and maybe that’s why but I fucking hate wizards man.
How are sorcerers any better any low level survivability?
The main difference between them is sorcerers get a free tricks in meta magic while knowing 15 spells over their career. Wizards can learn ALL of their spells with a little monetary investment or judicious application of fireball to enemy wizards.
Fuxkin’ Wizards are a gods-damned drain on the party. Lucky if they get one spell off while they spend the rest of their actions moving out of the way and making other members spend their actions on helping and reviving. Yeah sure that one spell they manage to get off is fucking dope but I’ll take a sorcerer over a wizard any day of the week even at disadvantage.
Low level wizards are a drain on the party.
High level wizards… Don’t fuck with the high level wizards. Especially not ones who have some time to prep for the encounter.
A tale as old as time: the linear warrior, quadratic wizard. (TVTropes warning.)
I think it’s a problem just because of changing expectations for the game. If you’re playing modern D&D, where combat is supposed to be balanced, character death is rare, everyone levels at roughly the same rate, yeah, it sucks to be an early level wizard or a late level fighter who can’t keep up with the rest of the party. I get why the trend has been to try to balance them, even if it’s a bit wonky. I get it, it’s hard to do.
But if you’re playing it in more old-school way, where it’s more gamey, it makes a LOT more sense. Combat isn’t necessarily balanced, character death is more on the table, you’re more likely to have a rotating cast, and parties can have different levels between the members. So the late-game magic-user is the reward for playing the class that’s weaker earlier on, and the fighter is great for jumping into the action.
To be fair, Gygax as a DM was adversarial AF and literally sought every opportunity to TPK with singular focus. To him, the way you won at D&D was to know the game better than the DM, and he was an insufferable ass about it, NGL. (source: I had the privilege of playing at his table at GenCon in the 90s) The bit about the Wish Fulfillment is spot on, as the OG creators of the system constructed it out of spreadsheets and statistics (shudders in THAC0) in order to “realistically” play out their own branches of Tolkein’s grand tales. So, with that in mind, and LotR in its entirety as a blueprint, the casters-as-gods-in-training and martials grabbing all the glory makes perfect sense.
And that’s not even touching on the extreme rarity of “late game” sessions ever being played. The impact of obligations on scheduling in adulthood combined with the exponentially more complex prep work involved on both sides of the table add up to “campaigns” being a pipe dream for all but the most cloistered of gaming groups. In fact, smart money’s on the likelihood that high level short arcs & one shots easily outnumber by an order of magnitude the campaigns that’ve reached late game status through regular play.
So, I guess what I’m saying here is: comparing the two is less about what affects actual gameplay and pretty much only about debating who would win in a fight and at what point on their level progression — not unlike arguing which comic book character could whip another one’s ass, or which sportsball player has the better stats at certain points in their career… And, we’re back to Wish Fulfillment theorycrafting. 🤓🧙🏼♂️
This is so gloriously fucking spot on that I’d take my hat off (if it weren’t a cursed artifact with -2 charisma bound to my head through magicks unknown)
That’s how I felt with Gale in Bg3. First part of the game I was always trying to save his scrawny ass, but once he’s leveled up the man is a weapon of magical destruction.
I’m still in act 1, I’m a very slow player, but damn everything just tries to murder Gale first.
Anything intelligent should. Everyone knows you gib caster or healer first.
The DMs I’ve always played with run a meat grinder for a campaign, character death is a regular thing. We don’t get attached to them. So there’s rarely any characters higher then lvl 5-8 or so. Maybe you’re right and maybe that’s why but I fucking hate wizards man.
How are sorcerers any better any low level survivability?
The main difference between them is sorcerers get a free tricks in meta magic while knowing 15 spells over their career. Wizards can learn ALL of their spells with a little monetary investment or judicious application of fireball to enemy wizards.
There are two classes, barbarian and pathetic squishy wiener. At least that’s what the big guy threatening me unless I dictate this message says.
This is why I always play a Battle Master fighter so I can use Commander’s strike to force the wizard to actually fight.