• Rapidcreek@lemmy.worldOP
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    7 months ago

    Hamas just hasn’t been taking civilian noncombatants as hostages like Israel has been doing.

    Totally untrue

    • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      Where are Hamas getting them?

      Like, do you think this is an actual war where both sides attack each other’s territories?

      Seriously, at what point in the last six months would Hamas have captured non combatants?

      • Stovetop@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        I am not here to give Israel a W, but Hamas still has a number of civilian captives from the original October 7 attack. Just not as many surviving as was assumed.

        According to Israel’s own figures, there are 90 or so living hostages and 30 or so bodies still held by Hamas IIRC. Apparently most of the 90 survivors are non-civilians, based on what Hamas is saying, but some of them still are.

        • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          According to Israel’s own figures,

          But not according to anyone else’s…

          Israel has been flattening the entire area, they can’t keep track of how many they kill, regardless of what country they’re from.

          But the article OP linked even says there aren’t 40 noncombatants left…

          CNN’s record of the conditions of the hostages also suggests there are fewer than 40 living hostages who meet the proposed criteria.

          I’m not sure what you’re not understanding about this.

          Or why you’re listening to Israel still

          • Stovetop@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            But the article OP linked even says there aren’t 40 noncombatants left…

            Right, I acknowledged that. It’s just that no one knows who specifically is counted in the alive vs dead hostage statistics. It wouldn’t surprise me if Israel purposefully set a number of civilians that they knew had likely already died, knowing that Hamas would not be able to comply with the request, to justify continuing the conflict.

          • Stovetop@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            I would say take it with a grain of salt, but there’s enough international scrutiny that I would say the list of missing is probably reliable enough. People in Israel are still protesting the Israeli government about that very frequently. Not everyone missing from October 7th has been returned, alive or dead. Many probably buried beneath rubble from IDF attacks, to be honest, since several were already confirmed killed by “friendly” fire.

            Edit: to add, it is worth noting that Hamas is not the only group that participated in Oct 7 and took hostages. There are likely other hostages that they cannot account for because they were taken by other groups.

        • SkyezOpen@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          And they’ve been repeatedly bombed for the past several months, try to keep up.

        • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          Try to keepup.

          I have…

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli–Palestinian_prisoner_exchange

          Again, your own article says CNN knows there aren’t 40 hostages left that aren’t noncombatants.

          Israel keeps taking civilians hostage, so they have enough.

          Since 10/7 the only Israelis Hamas interacts with are combatants. They literally don’t have enough hostages left for this deal, which is likely how the deal arrived at that number.

          It’s something that literally is impossible to comply with, and Israel gets to blame Hamas.

          This ain’t complicated bub. Your own source agrees with me.

          You should read it

      • TheFonz@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        You only addressed half the statement. They are not saying that Israel doesn’t take civilian hostages. They are questioning the claim that Hamas doesn’t take civilian hostages. Follow the thread please.

        • aleph@lemm.ee
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          7 months ago

          Is there any evidence that Hamas has taken new hostages since October 7th? Because AFAIK there isn’t.

          • TheFonz@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            A temporal attribute has not been included in this statement:

            Hamas just hasn’t been taking civilian noncombatants as hostages like Israel has been doing.

            But you have added a temporal qualifier:

            taken new hostages since October 7th

            I think maybe that’s where the disconnect is? I don’t know. I don’t know who or what you’re arguing against.

            • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              No you are changing the statement yourself. The statement is

              Hamas just hasn’t been taking civilian noncombatants as hostages like Israel has been doing.

              Israel is widely kidnapping mostly innocent civilians whereas Hamas very much targeted military for kidnapping.

              This is as obvious as the lower than 2/3 civilian casualty rate for Hamas whereas israel has a far higher civilian casualty rate.

              • TheFonz@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                Sources? Do I even want your sources at this point…last time I asked for evidence you gave me a verbal statement by the prime minister and that was good enough in your book. You really don’t need much convincing when the evidence aligns with your bias, do you?

                • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  Last time you got a source you denied reality and pretended that “no that doesn’t count”. I’m not sure why you are bringing this up it only makes you look bad.

                  Israel social security data reveals true picture of Oct 7 deaths

                  The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139.

                  • TheFonz@lemmy.world
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                    7 months ago

                    I’m realizing that either your intentionally ignoring what I’m saying or English is not your first language.

                    Your standard of evidence was a quote by Benjamin Netanyahu

                    For honest people one off quotes do not constitute evidence.

                    So yes: I reject your standard for proof because it is very low

            • aleph@lemm.ee
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              7 months ago

              The temporal qualifier is inherent in the grammar of the statement. Perhaps you didn’t notice it?

              In English, the present perfect continuous has/hasn’t been taking implies a frequent and repeated action since a fixed time in the past - in this case, presumably, the start of the current conflict until now.

              Since Hamas only took civilian hostages on one occasion, i.e. October 7th, and not again since, it is not true to say that Hamas “has been taking hostages”. They took hostages. Once.

              Israel, on the other hand, have been taking Palestinian civilians captive, repeatedly, since October 7th. That’s the difference.

              • TheFonz@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                You’re inferring the start point for the perfect continuous and assigning Oct 7; I’m assigning the start point to be the overall conflict in a broader context. I’m being charitable. I might be wrong, but I can’t read OPs mind so I’m being charitable.

                • aleph@lemm.ee
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                  7 months ago

                  In that case, they would have used the present simple, “Hamas don’t take hostages”, but they didn’t.

                  I think you simply misunderstood the original statement.

                  • TheFonz@lemmy.world
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                    7 months ago

                    I could be wrong. I’m happy to take the L. Not a hill I want to die on.