Something on the lines of if your company facility is using over X amount of energy the majority of that has to be from a green source such as solar power. What would happen and is this feasible or am I totally thinking about this wrong
Edit: Good responses from everyone, my point in asking this was completely hypothetical, ignoring how hard it would be to implement a restriction. My own thoughts are that requiring the use of renewable energy for high electricity products could help spur the demand for it as now it’s a requirement. Of course companies would fight back, they want money
Green energy is still not free energy.
Every amout of green energy a crypto miner uses is less green energy for everything else. You take 3% (country consumption) of capacity from the green grid, you must up at least 3% the production in existing coal plants.
Or add 3% to the green grid
And spend it on calculating useless hashes instead of reducing coal mining?
Bankers are useless and a waste of resources. Replace them with computers
Since it’s a common mistake when discussing cryptocurrency energy use, I should point out that it’s really only Bitcoin specifically that uses significant amounts of electricity these days. Most other cryptocurrencies have switched to proof of stake systems, which uses negligible energy.
Just to expand on this, While eth is 99.99% less energy use than Bitcoin, it still added 2.8 kilotonnes of co2 last year which is equal to about 2000 average houses for a year.
It’s a negligible amount in the scheme of things, but a lot for a virtual currency especially when you add up all the various cryptocurrencies out there.
It wouldn’t hurt to make all the POS ones use green energy, but probably wouldn’t impact anything by itself.
Changing Bitcoin to green energy alone probably would however.
Why is it “a lot for a virtual currency?” What’s the typical energy usage of a virtual currency?
In 2019 Visa used 740,000 gigajoules of energy, which is equivalent to 6727 households (google dug up a figure of 110 Gj/year for that). So this really doesn’t seem like a lot for this kind of thing.
By your estimate, visa used 3.4x the power of eth. I would guess visa handles much much more than 3.4x the volume of currency transactions and is way more efficient on energy.
The thing that everyone misses in these comparisons is that yes that’s the energy that VISA expended to make these transactions but for a crypto currency the energy use isn’t even to make the transaction. In the end each transaction is a few Bytes of data that have no difficulty getting across the world (much like this post or any comment). The energy use is so “high” because that’s is used to secure the currency. And of course that’s a much harder comparison to make but a fairer one.
How much energy does the the banking system actually use? How much energy is used to secure the US dollar for example?
You have to account for the entirety of it. That’s like saying that F1 doesn’t pollute all that much because they use bio fuel and the cars are very energy efficient, completely disregarding the fact that the majority of the pollution is in the constant global shipping of cars and gear, as well as R & D
Ethereum did approximately 1.1m transactions a day. Visa did approximately 660m a day.
Small difference lol
Probably, but Ethereum does a lot of things that Visa can’t. Visa transactions are exceedingly simple. It was just the only generally comparable thing I could think of that I could get energy figures for, do you know of any better examples?
And that’s just Visa.
https://www.eia.gov/consumption/commercial/data/2012/c&e/cfm/pba4.php
That lists the energy usage of banking and financial office space to be 18 billion kWh, or 64.8 petajoules. (About 87x that Visa figure.)
And even that is just office space. Doesn’t factor in the manufacture, distribution, transport, storage, and disposal of physical money, or any other associated costs.
On the flip side, global banking processes something like 5+ orders of magnitude more transactions than ETH, so even at the low end it’s 1000x more efficient than the most well known POS coin.
Acting like 2000 average houses is a lot of power consumption for a cryptocurrency with such an unimaginably high market cap… That’s basically a rounding error.
I specifically said it’s negligible if you bothered to read past that line
Everything above 0% is not neglible for such uselessly decadent endeavours as cryptocurrency.
Who decides what “negligible” is? It’s unnecessary and we’re living in a climate crisis.
Greedy arrogant cryptobros decides that obviously.
Also over half is used by green energy already and will continue to grow
There is a caveat to this. It’s been a few years since I read the article, but oftentimes the reason Bitcoin miners run on renewables is because they set up shop in places that have established local cheap electricity.
The example in the article was a town with ideal geography for hydro power, to the point electricity was cheap enough to sell it to the next town over. Crypto-miners set up in the first town and quickly began using more power, driving up the cost and eventually causing serious issues for the second town as there wasn’t enough electricity leftover to send their way anymore.
I’m no fan of Bitcoin, but often the energy they use from hydro plants is energy that would literally be wasted otherwise. A hydro dam can’t control how much water is entering the reservoir, so if there’s more water entering the reservoir than is needed to generate electricity for the current demand then the dam will need to just throw the extra water away. Trying to transmit the electricty to remote markets can be an alternative, but that costs resources too and isn’t always practical.
Interesting, is it because of competition requiring more machines? What about something like Monero?
It’s because proof-of-stake is fundamentally different from how proof-of-work operates.
The fundamental problem that all blockchains need to solve is something called the Byzantine Generals Problem. A blockchain needs to consist of a list of transactions that everyone agrees on - everyone needs to be able to know which transactions are part of the list, and what order they appear on that list. But there can’t be any central “authority” making that decision, it has to be done in a completely decentralized way.
The way proof of work does it is that it requires people adding transactions to the list to do some extremely expensive calculations and attach the results of those calculations to the transactions that they’re adding. Anyone can do those calculations so there’s no central authority, but the costliness of the calculations means that once the transactions are added it becomes just as expensive to create a substitute set of transactions. So everyone ends up agreeing on what transactions were added because it would be unfeasably costly to “fake” an alternative history to the blockchain. This means it’s impossible to make a proof-of-work chain that isn’t hugely “wasteful”, because the waste is the point of it. It has to be costly for it to work.
Proof-of-stake takes a very different approach. It solves the same basic problem - determining which transactions are part of the chain in a decentralized manner - using some very fancy cryptography that I have to admit that I don’t fully understand. But instead of proving that the transactions you’re adding are “trustworthy” due to proving you’ve wasted a whole lot of resources adding them, you do it by putting up a “stake.” You lock a big sum of money in your cryptocurrency staking account and essentially make it a hostage to your good behaviour. If you put up a bad transaction you can lose your stake. So under proof-of-stake there’s simply no need to burn huge amounts of electricity.
Monero uses a proof-of-work algorithm like Bitcoin. The reason Monero doesn’t use anywhere near as much energy as Bitcoin is simply because it isn’t worth as much and so not as many people are mining it. If Monero was worth as much as Bitcoin the energy usage would rise to become comparable.
Problem is energy from the grid is just energy. You’d get crypto companies buying “green” energy leaving the dirty enegery for everyone else. It’d be meaningless.
Ultimately crypto mining is a pointless industry. It benefits the miners financially but doesn’t produce anything meaningful, while expending huge amounts of energy and polluting the world as a result. It’s also an extremely energy wasteful way to run the infrastructure needed to maintain crypto currencies.
It wouldn’t matter if we were in some Nuclear fusion powered utopia with an abundance of energy. But we’re not - we’re in the middle of a climate crisis and desperately trying to move over to green energy. Growing demands for energy for crypto is countering that.
The real solution is to tax crypto mining - for example tax then on every kWh they use. Regions that entice crypto operations in are chasing fools gold - the costs out weight any local economic benefits of new data centres being built.
While being right about crypto being meaningless for some people (I guess there are people valuing hope in decentralized monetary system, even if it is misplaced.), you failed to mention that most of other industries are equally meaningless and good part of them are even harmful: fashion, fast food, industrial food, banking - in a way we have it, cars in current form(no need for this huge tanks)…
In comparation crypto is just wasteful and isn’t harming anyone.
If you mean their own green energy that they have to buy, set up, and maintain on their own, then sure. Force them off grid and bring enormous financial consequences if they pollute to make their energy
They would just set up in Kazakhstan or something. How does that help? There’s no way everyone in the world passes the same law
Generally speaking, pollution etc. is what economists call “external cost”. It should be penalized in some way, and the usual tool is taxation. It’s not just AI and Crypto that should pay for non-green energy, but everyone. It’s massively simpler that way too, and massively simpler = harder to circumvent and manipulate.
Simplicity’s bad side in this is that it’s difficult to slap a “correct price” on pollution. I.e. difficult to calculate how much actual damage they’re causing.
In actual world, thanks to rampant corporatism and other forms of fuckery, what we’re actually doing is subsidizing these fuels, which is of course completely ass-backwards. Just removing the subsidies would already help a lot, but actually penalizing those energy forms even just a little would be huge.
It is a waste of energy either way which could have been used for actual useful purposes. So no, that is not a helpful solution.
They would get around that with green washing the way a lot of companies are these days.
It all depends on the details, but power is a local produced good and is not something that can be escaped with laws that want to stop carbon emissions.
You say that like the laws we have right now against carbon emissions are working. I get what you’re saying but the laws probably need a re-write.
The current laws most certainly do not work. The fact that they don’t work is a willing failure on the part of the lawmakers.
Why not use that energy for something useful?
Force this unnecessary tech bullshit to invest in becoming self-sufficient through green energy
Too much
T - double O. It’s a different word.
Although “so much” would probably be a better fit anyway
I actually meant to say so instead of to, but it ended up working out
Fair enough. I didn’t assume that because S & T are separated on the keyboard. Autocorrect can do weird stuff though.
Fixed it
Then miners would siphon off renewable energy and other more polluting sources would be used to power the remainder.
They’re not gonna build more green power supply just to help out crypto miners.
They would if we cut them off from the grid. All Bitcoin does now is raise electricity bills. Let them build solar farms and buy batteries if they insist on mining something useless to 99% of humanity.
You think these clowns are going to build anything? They’re just leeches trying to make money by doing nothing other than letting computers run.
No, but crypto miners could fund a boom in green energy industry if they bought their own panels, wind turbines, battery banks, etc.
They could. But they won’t.
You think a bunch of people Mining crypto for greed are gonna altruistically buy green energy?
Not altruistically, but if green energy was the most financially rewarding way to power their mining rigs, they’d do it.
Tax the greenhouse effect from the energy production, UBI to give people the money to afford what they need.
Trying to moralize every action on the market is a losing game though. I mean is this, the fediverse, worth the energy, are games, streaming, plant lights for your indoor plants?
It’s better to leave that to be individuals choices but make sure that the cost of the consequences are on the individual making the choices.
Like a carbon tax? We’ve been talking about that for years.
It could help a bit, but I think then there would just be less green energy available for the other applications.
Only proof of work crypto currencies require a ton of energy and the only way it’s profitable is by buying energy that would otherwise be wasted like methane flaring or excess renewable generation.
