Now that Google , FB wants to trap us and control every aspect of the Internet browsing, Is it even possible to break free.
Or creating new Internet is a unrealistic idea ?
The internet’s fine - the web’s the problem.
ssh, Call of Duty, email, random voice-call software on strange ports - all of them work fine. People have problems with websites.
Plenty of websites of course are fine, the problems present when people use search engines and find a bunch of guff written by a bot, Paywalls, and sign-up screens.
They say the best way to predict the future is to create it, so if you want to help there, ‘make good art’, write and share good content, don’t feed the machine. Sounds like you’re doing that already if you’re on Lemmy.
And if you want to check out a quieter corner of the internet, where things aren’t all in-your-face-sing-up-click-here-now-NOW-DOIT…download the lagrange browser and check out Gemini. It’s a mostly plain-text protocol, where people read and write, and sometimes share whacky music.
Yet another thing that capitalism is destroying.
This is, quite easily, one of the dumbest comments of all time.
You are free to setup and run a server, and create whatever experience you’d like. With how cheap hosting is it would probably be free for you to do for quite a long time too.
But you won’t, because you’re a consumer
Not really. It’s the difference between sustainability and perpetual growth. The problem with all these services. Is that no mater where you tend to fall along them. There’s always someone below you gouging to make just a little more money. And everyone above them has to do the same to either make ends meet, or gouge and get their own growth. Capitalism at a basic level abhors sustainability. After all a CEO of a company can be fired for failing to maximize the company’s bottom line. Regardless of whether or not it was legal to do so or sustainable.
People don’t ask themselves why things cost as much as they do. They simply assume that there’s a reason. And just absorb the hit. In terms of it and telecommunications. Processing power continues an unabated growth as well as Network transmission speed. Yet despite being able to handle more load and more traffic easily. Cost always goes up. It can’t even just stay the same for any length of time. And capitalism’s profit motive is solely to blame.
So what’s more sustainable. A planet or 1 square meter of ice
Yeah I’m sure the internet in China is doing so much better.
I don’t believe that anybody seriously believes the incredibly thin obvious lie that China is not a capitalist state, just look at it xD
That’s just communism with Chinese characteristics
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“Plain text” and “plaintext” are not the same.
“Plain text” = “not images, video, etc.”
“Plaintext” = “not encrypted”
The internet hasn’t changed and is still the same Internet from the 90s. We’re all still using TCP/IP to communicate. A networked device using this protocol from 1993 would have no issue connecting to a network from 2023 (media conversion and bridging of the physical layer might be needed, but the point remains).
The problem is that everyone decided to congregate around the same four websites and the same web browser. You can, you know, stop using them anytime and seek alternatives RIGHT NOW that still exist. You’re here already, so that’s a start.
Make your own website! You can even host it on neocities for free.
Thing is deciding on what to post and making the time to do so. xD
TCP has been amended in backwards incompatible ways multiple times since 1993. See e.g. RFCs 5681, 2675, and 7323 as examples.
Plus, speaking TCP/IP isn’t enough to let you to use the web, which is what most people think of when you say “Internet”. That 1993 device is going to have trouble speaking HTTP/1.1 (or 1.0 if you’re brave) to load even the most basic websites and no, writing the requests by hand doesn’t count.
I’m convinced that any “new” internet protocol will eventually fall victim to capitalistic human greed in the exact same way. Human greed is what causes the world to be what it is now and that greed still exists in a strong percentage of people today (if given the opportunity to exploit it)
It wouldn’t fall to greed, bit to laziness and convince. Why would anyone use a protocoll that limits the user instead of the one that let’s you talk with anyone you want.
Seems like all we need is a search engine that only returns sites that don’t shove unwanted content down your throat. Tall order though.
I’ve started using Duckduckgo, less specifically for the search and more for the bangs. Fed up of search surfacing sites they care about. I can now quickly search wikipedia with !w etc.
I host my own searx instance and use that to search, it supports all of DDG’s bangs by default if you begin a query with a double bang !!
Not advocating for Google here, but you can do that with “site: wikipedia.org” as a search operator in Google.
DDG’s bangs actually use the site’s own search feature though, rather than narrowing the search engine’s results to a given site.
And, less typing. That’s a plus for me.
Yeah but that’s slower and not using the sites specific search
more for the bangs
desire to know more intensifies
Bangs are awesome, and so are the Vim keybinds
Kagi has a “small web” search option, as well as an RSS feed and bare-bones front-end. https://blog.kagi.com/small-web
Kagi has been amazing for me so far. I signed up as soon as they changed the pricing to allow unlimited searches at $10/mo.
I’m still working on my filters and promoting/demoting/pinning sites in my results, but it’s already night-and-day better than Google and even DuckDuckGo (which still deserves much respect).
Looks promising if you’re on a Mac/iOS setup, but I’m on Fedora Linux, so sadly they don’t offer an option for that. If they ever offered Linux support in the future, I’d definitely give Kagi a try.
People aren’t putting content much on the open web as they used to as well. Think the high point was when blogs were a thing, the second high point was during the Geocities et all free webspace peroid.
I can see how some people can get trapped in a bubble of Google and FB. I hope they can realize that Google, FB, Reddit, and Twitter are not “the internet”.
I stopped using FB when the timeline became useless (it was hard to filter to a specific friend or family member), and also that I no longer wanted to see updates from people I didn’t even want to hear from. I have since switched to smaller and more personally curated social media platforms like a group chat or a discord server.
Sure google is a common homepage for a lot of people, but there are other alternatives that work well. TBH, a few years ago, I wanted to switch to DuckDuckGo, but their search results were lacking compared to google, but fast forward to now, DDG gives more accurate and useful results than Google’s ad driven and AI driven “search results”.
I’ve enjoyed my “internet experience” much better after switching from Reddit to Lemmy. Just the fact that it’s not driven by profit, and policy changes are not a the whim of a monolithic corporation, makes the experience much better. I generally don’t see people trying to grift on lemmy. I really appreciate the useful and well thought out comments/posts on lemmy compared to other platforms.
Also, Mastodon is so much more enjoyable to use than Twitter (deadnaming it, I don’t care).
Corps aren’t people. Deadname twitter forever!
It’s wildly unrealistic but also pointless, because nothing stops us from building new services on top of the existing net. See also: Lemmy, Mastodon etc.
Convincing “regular people” to move is the hard part.
The Internet is actually very fine and alternatives to the big guys will keep popping up.
For tracking in general there are several options like pihole, adguard and NextDNS on a DNS level, Firefox/Orion browsers, Proton / Mullvad etc VPN and services.
For search I’ve been fairly happy with DuckDuckGo for some years, but not swears by Kagi.
What is gone is the early days of the seventies / early eighties with free servers at universities accessible to anyone. It doesn’t scale.
Various models tried to figure it out until we got what we’ve had for the last 10 years, “free” services where you are the product.
What you won’t get going forward is free services that gives you what you want without also tracking and collecting data on you and using it for ads etc.
What you can get is high quality services that you choose to pay for.
For now, a fair bit of them is niche and sort of expensive. Hopefully that will expand to giving is fairly broad service coverage from providers that are mostly crowd funded and open.
DDG makes a profit without tracking. Why couldn’t that become more standard?
Because the alternative makes a lot more money.
Much of the old web is still there. A lot of old sites have gone dark, but there are still some that remain, and some have persisted for surprisingly long.
Usenet and IRC still exist! As public and distributed services, like the Fediverse and the World Wide Web itself, one node can go down but others remain. Things that don’t remain? AOL IM; Yahoo Messenger; MSN Messenger; Google Talk (in its original form).
When everyone chased after social media, many people declared the old web dead. They were wrong. When mobile platforms hit it big, a lot of people thought the days of the desktop PC were gone. They were wrong too. The demise of Google Reader was an attempt to kill off RSS, but a lot of sites still have feeds. And a lot of blogs still exist, even if it’s getting harder to find them due to Google Search’s ongoing decay.
Corporations have big PR budgets, and a lot of tech reporters are uncritical about what they hype. Witness the attempts to get cryptocurrency, NFTs, and now LLMs, to take. But we do not have to buy what they’re selling.
We don’t need a new internet. The old one survives, for now at least. But we have to remember it exists, and make it easier to find.
But we have to remember it exists, and make it easier to find.
Is it time to bring back webrings?
Yes, it is.
StumbleUpon!
Unfortunately, StumbleUpon enshittified.
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Hell yes.
At the end of the day you just create websites without trackers. Plenty of sites like it exist.
There’s simply not enough demand for it. The majority of people simply don’t care.
There’s no need for a new internet. Every garbage service has a somewhat viable alternative.
You have peertube instead of youtube Kagi, duckduckgo, marginalia, etc instead of Google search Lemmy instead of reddit Mastodon, polycentric instead of twitter Gitea instead of github Bandcamp instead of spotify There are probably more things but you get the idea. The problem is not the internet itself but that you have to have many people go to objectively less polished or paid services to protect their personal data. I don’t know how that would happen since honestly, the privacy shit doesn’t affect people’s everyday lives, but using different services does affect their lives.
With blackjack and hookers?
With blackjack and hookers!
BBSes are making a comeback. This time over telnet. They’re just as great as they used to be.
This time over telnet.
telnet
is an insecure protocol. Ideally you should usessh
insteadbut mostwhich some modern BBS’s support both. Of course if you want to dial in on legacy “authentic” hardware then SSH isn’t possible.💡You can SSH (or telnet) from your phone using Termux and it works pretty well (though admittedly not as good without full ANSI support). It doesn’t use full height of screen but is still usable. BBS’s could be enhanced to support that though.
Here’s an example of how one looks on my phone:
ssh NEW@bbs.bottomlessabyss.net -p 2222 -c aes256-cbc
In my part of the BBS-world telnet is the only option. I’m a C64 guy, and a TCP stack is memory hungry enough for 64k of RAM.
But yes, encrypt when available.
This looks fucking awesome.
I really like Termius for SSH on Android (dunno if it’s on iOS). I use it for all my servers.
If I can play tradewars again, without having to worry about one of my friends calling to knock me off so they can get in, I’m in.
Any good resources for finding these?
The internet is much larger and diverse than the World Wide Web
As someone familiar with the OSI model, this thread is a bit confusing since the Internet to me is really the infrastructure on top of which all of your fancy sites and apps are built. When you say “the Internet”, I’m thinking about TCP/IP, BGP, DNS, etc.
That said, I’m pretty sure most people here are just taking about websites at L7, although there are arguments for change at the other layers.
The internet is the result of networks connecting to other networks. If you aim to replace that, then how? Making new networks just expands the internet, making new interconnections just makes it more meshed.
You would have to make networks not connected to the internet but interconnected with each other. That’s expensive and all the economic network effects are against you. You probably won’t have many users connected and not many services either.
But let’s say you did it, what exactly is the benefit of a second internet? Would you be banning some networks from connecting to your mesh? What if one network in your internet connects to the normal Internet anyway? What sort of technologies and services would there be, just the normal ones, then what changes?
Honestly I don’t see the point. A concentration of economic power and influence over web technologies is the issue. The internet works fine, and we make it work every day (my specific corner being research networks in Switzerland). You need to change the producer and consumer behaviour of people and companies using the internet, not the internet itself.
You just build a network on top of the existing infrastructure. See tor, i2p, usenet
Sure but an overlay network is not a new Internet. I still think OP is confused about his goals.
Tor/Darkweb, Freenet, LoRAWAN are all the alternate internets I can think of off the top of my head. The difficulty is generally the “network effect”. 1 Fax machine is useless, 10000 are very useful. Similiarly, an alternate internet with one website isn’t all that interesting.