Seems like bullshit to me. Recognizing the logical fallacy here, it’s still worth pointing out the firm has a history of working with major auto manufacturers, and is headquartered near Detroit. Their CEO, Patrick L. Anderson, also served under a Republican governor in multiple roles and is a contributor to numerous conservative research institutes.
Yeah, this is bullshit. I charge my car at home by leaving it plugged in overnight. Costs me literally a few bucks a month to keep it charged. I don’t even notice it on my electricity bill.
If I were charging at fee-based charging stations all the time, the story would be different, but who the hell does that?!?
We were looking at getting an EV without being able to charge it at home. Charging it at public chargers here in the UK would’ve cost about the same as petrol. But having to rely on the public charging infrastructure in its current state made us decide against it, at least for now.
Out of curiosity, why couldn’t you charge it at home? Most electric cars can have their chargers plugged into a standard wall outlet. It’s slower, but it works fine.
I live in a hilly suburb, there’s a parking pad at road level which is far from my house and on council land. No way for me to install charging equipment. It’s very common in my country.
Yeah, that sounds like a fully electric vehicle wouldn’t be a good fit, then.
Well not yet. We have to make it a good fit though. Can’t keep burning oil.
I wish I could make it work, and it highlights some huge infrastructure issues that need to be solved before the combustion engine goes
Same as what others said. We basically don’t have a driveway. The UK government is pushing for public chargers to become more reliable and easier to use though. This reinforced our fears that the current infrastructure may be unreliable but at the same time really gives hope that it will be good enough for us in the very near future. Our employer’s office also doesn’t currently offer charging, which some of our friends get, which is really nice for people in my situation.
I’d love to have one too but I live in the city now instead of the suburbs. My car is parked on a concrete pad in the alley behind my house, a good 80 feet from any electricity. I could probably charge at work though by just parking in the warehouse and plugging in to one of the many extension cords we have around.
I mean, if your employer doesn’t mind, that could be a hell of a cost-effective way to keep it topped up.
I’m the VP so I’d better be able to get away with it lol
If you are plugging into an outlet in your garage (level 1) you are only charging up 3 - 5 miles per hour. Putting in a 240v 40 amp (level 2) will get you 20 - 25 miles per hour i.e. a complete recharge for current batteries in 12 hours.
Here in DK we are fine with public charging only. Still quite a bit cheaper than gas for a comparable car. And I suspect lower repair cost, (currently) free parking and eventual city closures for ICEs to be enough logical reasons for hesitant people. Personally I would have never bought an ICE. Felt bad enough getting a car at all.
People who live in apartments and basement suites, basically anywhere with no garage. After 2030 or 2035 or whatever the deadline is there will be lots of people who have electric cars and no way to charge them overnight at home, so people will have to charge at public chargers everytime.
People who live in apartments. Or generally places where they can’t just plug in at home.
Thanks for doing the work.
Consideration for readers. Remember not everyone lives where you do and has the same access and infrastructure that you do.
Some US states are pushing for EV but do not have the power production needed to support it at scale. Maybe another 10 or 20 years when everyone has a nuclear reactor in their backyard.
I’m all for EV for those that it makes sense. For many, especially the impoverished, it’s just another barrier to overcome.
It’s not a
logical fallacyconspiracy when they’re really out to get you though.That said, my experience charging an EV in the space of one month cost as much as 14 twelve gallon tanks of gas. There may be something wrong with my electric service but the power company is an evil monopoly that doesn’t care about anything but getting paid so…
Assuming gas is $3.75/gal where you live, that is $630. If you spent $630 on charging your car in one month then you either drive 3000 miles a month or have a problem with your electric meter. Assuming you live in the state with the highest electricity prices that isn’t Hawaii (because then we couldn’t assume $3.75/gal for your gas), your rate is $0.34/kWh. That means you 1853kWh.
Assuming you drive the least efficient EV, the Hummer, which goes 329 miles on 213kWh, you would have to drive 2862 miles in one month to spend $630. So for the worst case electrical price, with the worst case EV mileage, with average gas prices, you are driving a lot more than most people to spend 14 twelve gallon tanks of gas worth. For reference, switching that Hummer to a Bolt would only cost $278 to drive 2862 miles.
It’s worse than that, it’s a hybrid that can only go maybe 30 miles before the battery is drained. So that doesn’t even account for 1000 miles. Super wasteful, but whatever’s going on isn’t the norm so I’m getting hit on multiple fronts.
There’s definitely a lot of nuance involved. For instance my service provider charges more for electricity than the public charge stations do (seriously fuck PG&E and every other monopolistic service provider), so I actually save money by not charging at home. It’s still absolutely cheaper than filling up on gas though, especially when I can find a spot where I don’t have to pay (like my work.)
Did you charge at home during the night, or during peak hours/at fast chargers?
How many tanks of gas would you have gone through in a comparable vehicle?
Here’s my answer for this (with data!): For the month of July, I charged 440.0 kWh. I averaged 94% efficiency while charging, so the chargers actually used 469 kWh. There were 35 charges, for a total of 66 hours spent charging. My total electric cost is 15 cents per kWh (my plan doesn’t have peak/off-peak). I did no charging at superchargers in July.
In that timeframe, I drove 1314 miles. 355kWh were used while driving, giving me an average efficiency of 3.7 miles per kWh. You’ll note that I used 85 fewer kWh driving, that’s because thosed 85 kWh were used to precondition my car, keep the AC running while I’m in the store or on a bike ride, etc. Super wasteful, but it’s so cheap that I can’t help myself).
So to break it down: 15 cents per kwh * 469kWh = $70 to charge, $12.75 of which was just used for climate control while not driving.
My last car was a 2016 Honda Accord Touring V6 which, in my area and with my driving style, averaged about 22mpg (lots of steep hills, 85mph driving, and stop and go traffic. I live 15 miles from town by interstate and town has lots of traffic).
According to AAA, the average cost of gas in PA is $3.87 (I know that price changes, but the math gets harder if I look up the price of gas each time I would have had to fill the tank so I’m just taking the current avg). 1314 miles / 22mpg = 59.7 gallons of gas * $3.87 = $231.
For extra fun math, looking at purely fuel costs, the Accord would cost 17.5 cents per mile to drive (not including the fact that I’d need an oil change every 4 months, transmission fluid every year and a half, etc).
My current car at current electric rates costs 5.3 cents per mile to drive.
Additionally, i’m planning on getting solar in a year or two, which should bring my cost down to effectively zero. AND, we can charge for free at my wife’s work when she’s in the office (as well as at the park I bike at), but she wasn’t in the office at all in July; we both worked from home full time last month.
TL;DR: my Model 3 Long Range costs about a third as much per mile to drive as my similarly sized Honda Accord did before I sold it
I charge a Lightning at home with an 80 amp charger and before that I had a gas f150. The increase to my energy bill was about $30-$40 a month and offset about $400 a month in gas.
Only ever overnight, and maybe 5 tanks tops.
I don’t see how working with major manufacturers or being near Detroit makes it likely that this group wants to push an ICE narrative. Ford and GM have some of the most advanced electric vehicle systems in the world and are shipping more EV units than competitors.
The whole article and the report, nowhere is it explained how they get their numbers. What fuel prices or electricity prices have they used, what mileage for the cars. It’s kind of crucial info, and not really difficult to calculate either.
Yeah because the article is absolute bullshit. The bias was immediately evident.
Then why’d you post it? 😅
It’s provocative. It gets the people going.
Is this your first day on social media? People post 1 + 1 = 3 and get a ton of angry corrections.
Because I saw the article on my newsfeed and clicked to see what it was about. I risked the impression I editorialized the headline by adding the “Research firm claims” but thought it might help readers here make up their own mind.
I think it’s good to read and criticise the materials that “opponents” read.
The report gives a quick summary of what they include, but not any details or math.
The cost of underlying energy (gas, diesel, electric)
State excise taxes charged for road maintenance
The cost to operate a pump or charger
The cost to drive to a fueling station (deadhead miles)Elsewhere it says it assumes 12k miles in a year and is focused on the midwest and Michigan in particular. As it so happens, Michigan charges for registration based on the car value. EVs cost more than ICE vehicles in the same market segment most of the time. This would fall under excise taxes that they include.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they also tacked on the cost to install a L2 charger once as “cost to operate a pump or charger” — intentionally ignoring that it’s a one-time fee to support EVs at a home. With those two data points they could easily add >$1000 to the cost to “charge” an EV for one year if that is what they wanted to do.
The people making the report clearly picked criteria that sounds reasonable but also intentionally misleads people. Not a surprise.
I’m not reading further down the line to see but did anyone notice the pic used in this post to show someone not understanding where their fuel door is? Back out and back in correctly and pump gas like a normal human being.
That’s a Costco, they specificially tell you to use any lane and the hose is long enough to reach. That person is just following directions. The stations are built with one way traffic flow and get very busy, it’s not practical to queue for a particular side of the car.
Ah! Today I learned that happens. Thanks for letting me know.
MOST cars have the fuel door on the left, Costco tends to have more cars queue in the lanes that match up with the left hand fuel door so regardless of what side your fuel door is on grab the lanes with the pump on the right of your car and you’ll get through a bit faster since you can pull it around.
Well this article just isn’t right at all
I drive an entry level EV (Hyundai Kona) that advertises 4mi/kWh, which is roughly accurate (2-3 in the winter, 5-7 in the summer). That’s 25 kWh for 100 miles.
Average cost of electricity in the US is, according to a quick Google, somewhere between $.15 and $.25 per kWh; where I live it’s a steeper $.33.
Therefore, depending on where I charge, I’m paying anywhere between $3.75 and $8.25 to drive 100 miles–$1.50 short of the article’s published $9.78 even with my expensive power.
In reality, though, I pay nothing–my office offers free charging. Show me an office with free gas.
This is absolutely stupid. The only way you’re spending more on EV charging is if you get the most expensive at-home charger with the most expensive professional installation, and then never use it because you only charge at the most expensive level-3 chargers. I almost exclusively charge my Bolt for free, but even when I pay for the electricity it’s the cost equivalent of getting 120-150 mpg. The level-3 chargers like Electrify America come out to be in the same ballpark as gas in terms of cost per mile, maybe even a little more… But you’d have to use them to ridiculous excess for the overall cost of driving to even approach ICE vehicles.
Research firm is bullshitting. It costs like $1-$2 for me to fill up my car with electricity at home.
If you have a Rivian R1T or GMC Hummer, the cost to charge at home isn’t much different; it’s about $17.70 per 100 miles.
Assuming the manufacturers claims are accurate (which is a big assumtion I know) that R1T, at the current US average electricity price of $16.14 per kWh, is $7.26/100mi.
I think a lot of this depends on where and when you get these numbers. For example, there’s a wider disparity between BC and Alberta because electricity is cheaper in BC while gas is more expensive.
Also, are we talking rapid charging stations or home charging a few times a week, because of course the commercial charging stations cost more, but some people may not need to use those except on some longer trips
The R1T description says the lowest battery size is 105 kWh with a range of 230 miles. This would give a “miles per kilowatt-hour” of 2.19 miles / kWh. Using the national average electricity price of $0.170 per kWh, the cost per mile is ($0.170/kWh) / (2.19 miles/kWh) = $0.0776/mile.
Using a Honda Ridgeline for gas equivalence, it has a combined 22 miles per gallon rating. With a national gasoline price average of $3.803 per gallon, the cost per mile is ($3.803/gallon) / (22 miles/gallon) = $0.172/mile.
So by these calculations the electric option is a little less than half the price of a gasoline equivalent. Perhaps charging the R1T in public with a premium, such as with superchargers, the cost per kWh may go up, but that’s a disingenuous comparison so I agree with you that the article is making some big assumptions.
Not in my experience. Perhaps if you were charging at a location which charges an inflated rate. At my current electrical costs in Canada, electric is cheaper per kilometre.
What kind of maniac intentionally only charges at public charging stations? That would be the only way I could see to make filling up an EV cost more. Maybe on-street parking apartment dwellers who also can’t charge at work would fit that description.
…how? Like, it cost $30 (10 gal) to fill my petrol car in the states. Even if I was using 150kwh in electricity, at my power rate in Wisconsin ($.13/kWh), it’s $19.95. I live in Vietnam now, and pay 2500 VND per kWh, and petrol is about 23500vnd/litre. I have an electric moped that goes 110km/charge, and has a usable capacity of about 0.7kwh. I rarely empty the battery, but even if I did it daily, it would be .08USD/day.
I’d like to see the math crunched on this.
Edit: I found the math. It’s dishonest. Shocker.
It’s actually not as bad as I was expecting. The electricity prices seem to be about right (17 cents per kwh at home, 43 cents at fast chargers), and the idea of having to drive farther to get to a charger is likely a reality for apartment dwellers.
The two shitty parts are that they included the cost of the charger in this which is obviously a one time expense, and they calculated that “mostly at home” users would still supercharge 20% of the time, which seems like a TON. I put 21K miles on my car in the past year, and I supercharged 470/6897 total kWh, so 7%. If you rectify both those things in their math (let’s say maybe 10% is average?) then the “at home” EVs clearly win.
But it is absolutely viable to point out that if you can’t charge at home (or at work, although I personally wouldn’t want to tie myself to an employer to be able to charge my car. I already hate that we do it for health insurance), then it is going to be much more expensive than for people who do, and possibly more expensive than similar gas cars. For example, I had a VW ID.4 for a year and it got AWFUL efficiency for my driving patterns (about 2 mi per kWh) and I exclusively fast charged at the local electrify america station because it was free.
If I had had to pay retail price for the EA charging for the 10,000 miles that I drove, 48 cents per kWh * 5000 kWh, that would’ve cost me $2400 to charge, which is absolutely more than it would’ve cost to just drive our CRV instead (25mpg, $3.87 for gas over 10K miles = $1548).
Oh yeah, absolutely. When I was stateside I put on better than 30k miles a year. An EV wasn’t a viable vehicle for me (for work anyway). Must people I know aren’t that though. Including the charger price as a constant is what inflated this, as well as commercial charging.
I’m about 2 years from being able to charge at home using excess solar (during 9ish months of the year, anyway) almost exclusively. That, plus not needing nearly as many service appointments, is going to save me enough on running costs to cover about 1/2 of the car payment on the electric car I’ll get (based on current prices, solar wattage / sqft, and my own driving habits). Its a very privileged position to be in.
Price of gas is not the cost of gas.
It should include a way of getting the gases back into non-gas form and to reverse/mitigate any damages caused in the process. And the same for all of the supply chains (for gas and electricity, and any product really), can’t produce that much waste on a finite planet & just forget about it if there are no (complete, non-bs) recycling processes, natural or man-made.
Thats why plastic very much isn’t cost-efficient, it’s just cheap bcs legislators allow it to be.
If we are talking just filling up - I went from $200/month with gasoline to $15-20/ month with my ev and charging at home. Obviously YMMV
I got blasted with a $700 electric bill this month, and we didn’t really do anything new or different. So this doesn’t surprise me really.
If electricity is going to cost this much, I guess the only way electric gets “cheaper” than gas is by hiking gas prices until its cheaper to charge. Consumers are never going to win though.
Why was your bill $700 though?
Is that all new charges for the previous month, is there an unpaid amount from last months bill? If you owed $650 on the last bill and didn’t pay it while the new month generated $50 in new charges then yeah your bill will be for $700. Just as an example.Just saying a number doesn’t mean anything. How did you manage to get charged $700.00 for your electric last month?
Edit: dude posted his bill below. His charge for one month is $350
No unpaid balance, just new charges. That was the cost of electricity for the last billing cycle.
Jesus, what’s your utilization or price per kWh? I use a shitload of electricity (around 2000kWh per month and my utility provider says average is more like 800) and my bill has never exceeded $300, even with an EV that I drive 1200 miles a month
He just posted a picture of his bill in a reply to me if you want to take a look at it.
For reasons I’m not sure about, I posted a screenshot of my bill below in answer to the quack telling me I don’t know what my bill was.
We live in the upper, larger portion of the house and there is a suite downstairs. I’m not sure what they get up to, but the cost is high. We have led lights, central ac which we only use conservatively. Other power sucks would be the extra fridge in garage I guess, so the household (with the suite) runs 3 fridges, 2 sets of laundry machines and 2 dishwashers. Our range is gas.
I have no idea how the bill is so high. I can only imagine how much higher it would be if I charged a vehicle on top - though I do understand that would eliminate the $120/week I spend on gasoline
I’m sorry but I simply do not believe your new charges were $700, especially if you “didn’t do anything different”. Did you host a rock festival in your backyard or something? Did you plug in a 12 foot pile of air conditioners on high the entire month on your driveway?
What state are you in and how many electric heaters are you using this summer?
deleted by creator
